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Author Topic: cold start oil flow  (Read 22816 times)

November 05, 2006, 08:40:14 am

Dr. Diesel

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cold start oil flow
« on: November 05, 2006, 08:40:14 am »
Smokeydub and I are taking a nightschool class in diesel engine maintenance. It's all big truck engines, but there's some useful info for all engines. Most notably so far was a video shown about oil flow at different cold temperatures. There's no secret here, cold oil takes longer to reach everything in an engine than hot oil. The problem is compounded by thicker oil viscosities. Previous to seeing this video, I wasn't quite aware of just how bad the problem is.

The short story is these imperial oil engineers replace the valve covers on some engines with plexiglass boxes to permit viewing of the valvetrain in action. They chilled the vehicle overnight in a rediculously expensive drive-in refrigerator to -25˚C. At this temperature, it took 12 mins for 15w40 to reach the cam lobes, 8 mins for 10w30 and 4 mins for 0w30 synthetic. You could clearly hear bearing squeal during the 15W40 test.

The test was repeated at -35˚C (lower than most will ever see, admittedly) and the times went up.

Armed with this alarming information, I've built a little test oil heater. It's very simple, just a regular block heater welded into a 1.5" hole in the back of the oil pan. I filled the pan with the appropriate amount of oil and plugged it in. Within 10 mins, the oil temp rose from 40˚F to 170˚F where it appeared to stabilize. This, of course, is without the heatsink action of the oil pump pickup and the block itself-- just an open pan on the floor.
I still want to leave it plugged in for a few hours and make sure that nothing stupid will happen. I can't imagine it being able to overheat the oil, especially when bolted to an engine and ambient temps below 0˚C.
Regardless, I'll try and see what happens.
Another item of benefit I've recently acquired is a Moroso oil pressure accumulator. Simple device, a piston within a cylinder. Nitrogen charge on one side, engine oil on the other side. When the engine is running, oil pressure moves the piston, compressing the nitrogen. Shut off the valve to store pressure. Next time the engine is started, open the valve first. Wait for the oil light to go out, then start the engine with full pressure. No more engine-killing dry starts.
I think this device combined with a block and oil pan heater will make for an extremely long-lived engine.


I repair, maintain and modify VW's and BMW's.
Good work done at affordable rates. Welding and fabricating, too.
Performance Diesel Injection's Super Pump: gotta have one!

Reply #1November 05, 2006, 08:59:16 am

burn_your_money

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2006, 08:59:16 am »
Wow... with that kind of info it's amazing that these engines even last as long as they do. I'd love to get full info on your experiment if you could :D

Where did you find that oil compressor deal? It sounds quite interesting
Tyler

Reply #2November 05, 2006, 10:13:14 am

QuickTD

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2006, 10:13:14 am »
I really pity the large engines used on standby power generators. They fire and instantly accelerate to 1800rpm and full load. Thankfully most have block heaters and live in a small shelter.

 I worked on engine/generator controls for a cooper inline 8cyl 900hp@900rpm natural gas engine that had a full prelube system. Cooper recommended that the prelube pump be kept running at all times to "float" the crank and prevent it from sticking to the bearings. What was most remarkable about the whole thing was the huge difference in cranking speed with the prelube pump turned on, huge reduction in friction...

Reply #3November 05, 2006, 10:41:42 am

bert

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2006, 10:41:42 am »
I would add that old diesel oil thickens with age as it gathers soot and old combustion debris,so change it regular,also,oil flow on ohv pushrod engines takes ages for oil to reach rocker arms,ohc engines seem to have a better oil flow to the head.
Bert

Reply #4November 05, 2006, 12:24:53 pm

Dr. Diesel

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2006, 12:24:53 pm »


http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=13600


Those oil flow times were for an OHC engine!

I will update progress on this idea.
I repair, maintain and modify VW's and BMW's.
Good work done at affordable rates. Welding and fabricating, too.
Performance Diesel Injection's Super Pump: gotta have one!

Reply #5November 05, 2006, 12:29:24 pm

bert

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2006, 12:29:24 pm »
Were for ohc engines  :shock:
you lot need to come to the uk for the winter -8 MAX  :wink:
Bert

Reply #6November 05, 2006, 01:02:55 pm

jtanguay

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2006, 01:02:55 pm »
I've always known that cold starts are the worst for any engine, and people who like to jam on the gas right after a cold start are pretty stupid, unless they've got 0w30 which even still is pretty stupid...

Dr Diesel did you say that you installed an element directly into the bottom of the oil pan?  I was considering doing that myself, and the only thing stopping me was... nobody else has done it, and not sure about the fire hazard, etc.  I'm just really tired...

I've already got the marine battery/isolator/3000 watt power inverter so I can run it stand alone when there are no power sources

Other products I have run with great success in the winter are Wynn's Metaloil, and surprisingly slick 50 does a good job (some idiot ran an airplane on slick 50, then drained the oil out and took it out for a spin... but the motor ran??? wtf!!!)  I still don't really trust teflon in a motor though, since it scores so easily.

Dr Diesel I have some oil extreme concentrate I'm going to be testing on the dyno soon.  They claim I will gain 5-7 hp and reduce engine wear by half:



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Reply #7November 05, 2006, 02:03:44 pm

jtanguay

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2006, 02:03:44 pm »
just to add to my previous post, i was thinking of using an element from an oven but will probably be too big... I just need something to basically cover the whole entire oil pan (it will obviously cut warming times by a lot)

if the oil could be heated from -20C to 5-10C in less than 2-4 minutes, I will be a happy man!!! :)

again, the main reason that nobody really does this is the fire hazard issue.  it would be a fire hazard for the reason that some people would leave it plugged in for too long, etc.

very interesting topic Dr Diesel.  Thanks!


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Reply #8November 05, 2006, 02:30:18 pm

Op-Ivy

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2006, 02:30:18 pm »
Thats why it makes me sick to my stomach when I see people at school start up their car and then leave literally 2 seconds later.....

8 minutes for 15w40 wow! I wonder how much a block heater would help. It would be interesting to see times for some warmer temperatures and compare the time it takes for proper oil distribution.
1990 TD Jetta - 490,000Km

Reply #9November 05, 2006, 02:50:36 pm

935racer

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2006, 02:50:36 pm »
Reason # 52 I need to move back to southern California. :lol:  I use a block heater in the winter on cold days (0degrees celcius and below), you feel a huge difference in engine warm up and starting/cranking.

Reply #10November 05, 2006, 03:38:28 pm

Dr. Diesel

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2006, 03:38:28 pm »
i put the (regular coolant frost-plug) block heater in the back wall of the oil pan near the drain plug. The floor of the oil pan might be better, but I was concerned about ground clearance issues. The last thing I want is to have a raised manhole cover or frozen cat turning my heater into a 1.5" drain hole! As you probably know, a block heater element isn't much bigger than the end segment of your thumb. A stove element sized unit would probably evapourate the oil in a matter of minutes.

I will try cooking it for a longer time on tuesday just to see what happens. I have a feeling it won't get a whole lot hotter than 170F. In a bucket of 2" deep water the temp maxed out at 184F. Somebody said they have some sort of internal temp regulator, which would be handy, but I don't really believe it yet.
I repair, maintain and modify VW's and BMW's.
Good work done at affordable rates. Welding and fabricating, too.
Performance Diesel Injection's Super Pump: gotta have one!

Reply #11November 05, 2006, 04:47:55 pm

jtanguay

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2006, 04:47:55 pm »
well Dr D if you say that the oil will evaporate in a matter of minutes, that is exactly what i want to hear!  :lol:

Basically I want to be able to go to my car, hit the glow plugs, and switch on the element inside of the oil pan and not have to wait 10 minutes for the oil to heat up.  I would not have the connector stick out of the bottom of the pan, but probablywhere you have yours sticking out (at the rear of the pan where it's safer).  I'm mainly looking to decrease wear on the engine, and i believe this will work perfectly :)

It's nice that i have a few 1.6's lying around that i can pull the pan and do some testing now, with cold oil in the pan to see how long it takes to warm up, and take a look at what the oil does as it is heating up, and also measure for clearance issues before trying it on my motor :)

as of now i'm thinking that a toaster oven's element might be small enough to fit inside the sump :)  we will soon find out!!!  plus i could use the temperature dial to keep it on low if i just want to keep it warm :)

btw, any price info on that moroso oiling system?


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Reply #12November 05, 2006, 04:52:58 pm

jackbombay

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2006, 04:52:58 pm »
Quote from: Dr. Diesel


http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=13600


Those oil flow times were for an OHC engine!

I will update progress on this idea.


  When you open the valve to fill it up your oil level will be low, or do you overfill your oil to compensate for that? I like the idea though.

  I never would have thougha cam could run for 12 minutes without oil and not be junk. I have a block heater and an oil pan heater on my TDI  :D

Reply #13November 05, 2006, 06:28:27 pm

HarryMann

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2006, 06:28:27 pm »
Quote
ohc engines seem to have a better oil flow to the head.


Funny that, they have always given much more cam trouble due to bad lub than OHV engines... notorious for it, esp. if left idling for minutes at a time before moving off.

A very powerful heater will sizzle the oil a round it and not heat up the erst of the oil in a couple of minutes - you DON'T want a heck of a powerful element! If it's 'that' cold a day, give it plenty of time while your're cleaning fof the screens and things maybe

Reply #14November 05, 2006, 09:16:58 pm

commuter boy

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cold start oil flow
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2006, 09:16:58 pm »
I use a magnetic oil pan heater that pops onto the bottom of the pan.  

Worked well enough when I was up in Yellowknife last winter for a few weeks, and I move it from vehicle to vehicle as need be.  In Vancouver one has little need for a permanent block heater.

 

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