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Author Topic: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods  (Read 14131 times)

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Armyhelopilot

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2011, 12:32:41 AM »
ROR,

  You suggested putting an AAZ (1.9) head on my 1.6 and forgo all the valve work.  I would also need new pistons, cam and a few other parts (injectors, glow plugs...)
1993 Geo Tracker w/ 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel
1990 F-350 Crew Cab w/ Cummins 4BT

maxfax

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2011, 01:16:43 AM »
IIRC

The 1.9 head on a 1.6 is a rather easy swap..  Your 1.6 GPs, injectors, and cam (as long as it's for hydro lifters) will work..   IF you have a hydro lifter block no problems there either, pistons have no need to be changed..  

If you have a mech lifter block, you'll need to plug the second oil return hole in the head.. Most tap it and screw a pipe plug in..

You would however need the AAZ valve cover as it fastens different, although I seem to recall seeing something (here maybe) about drilling and tapping the head for a standard 1.6 cover...

The biggest downfall would be harder starting in cold weather..  The chamber in the AAZ head is larger and will drop your compression down to something like 19.1..  That won;t hurt power and economy so much, but once again not good for cold starts...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 01:19:22 AM by maxfax »

Armyhelopilot

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2011, 02:06:37 AM »
Max,

    I was thinking of like the Frankenmotor 1.9TDI heads on 1.6L IDI blocks like andy2 and Malone have done.  They obviously have no prechambers in the head as the reason they lose compression.  Theirs is in the pistons.  I have found a site (emiata) that has the 1.9 AAZ head for $289 bare / $450 complete.  What all on my 1.6L N/A IDI block will transfer if I go with the bare bones block?
1993 Geo Tracker w/ 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel
1990 F-350 Crew Cab w/ Cummins 4BT

Armyhelopilot

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2011, 03:40:57 AM »
All,

    I was also wondering, everyone who has done this (1.9 AAZ on 1.6L block) has had problems with cold starts.  Can the head be shaved and the deck as well in addition to a thinner HG to bump the compression up slightly to help this?  Does the 1.9L head clamp better than the 1.6?  Remember, I have an '83 Jetta 1.6L N/A, which I am pretty sure is a mechanical head.  Everyone that puts on a 1.9L AAZ swtiches it to mechanical, even though it came as hydraulic.  I can plug the extra oil drain on the 1.9L head and fix the coolant mismatch while still keeping the head hydraulic?  That would save a lot of money I can use for porting an polishing.  IIRC, the Intake valve is only 1mm larger, correct?
1993 Geo Tracker w/ 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel
1990 F-350 Crew Cab w/ Cummins 4BT

maxfax

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 04:42:26 AM »
   I was thinking of like the Frankenmotor 1.9TDI heads on 1.6L IDI

They used a 1.9 IDI head..  IN the mid 90's the lucky Canadian #&*'s got a 1.9 IDI also referred to by it's engine code AAZ..  So they did still indeed have prechambers..  BUT the 1.9 AAZ has a larger volume prechamber than the 1.6 which is what caused the lower compression..  

The reasoning behind the larger prechamber on the 1.9 AAZ was to keep the compression down around the normal 23:1 range.. (I forget what the exact ratio was on those)  IF they had used the same chamber from the 1.6 coupled with the larger bore and stroke, the compression would be sky high..  Basically the same principal as stroking a gas engine..  A lot of stroker kits come with a dished piston, or a cylinder head volume suggestion so that you don't end up with crazy high compression..

At this point there are no 1.6 TDI pistons..  Emiata (aka Prothe) has claimed to be working on such a beast, but it hasn't happened yet..  Chances are as actual TDIs get older, they will get cheaper and make a TDI 1.6 not worth the time..

Your 83 is a mech lifter engine..  Other than the member Saurkraut on here, everyone has been running their AAZ with the hydro lifters.. Address the extra oil return port issue and you're golden..  Changing the head to mech lifters involves A LOT of custom work.. Probably not worth the time and money either..

Shaving the head will do nothing for compression..  The valves are flush with the gasket surface..  THe only chamber in the head is the precombustion chamber (or precup).. If you had some means of shrinking that without screwing with it's operation (swirl and stuff), you could raise the compression..  

Thinner head gasket is a not a good idea..  Once again, valves are flush with the gasket surface, and piston to valve clearance is pretty tight to begin with... Measure the protrusion of the piston and go no thinner than what that spec says.. Pistons making friends with the valves at high rpms is not a good situation...

I've often wondered how some sort of air heater in the intake (such as used on the Cummins) in conjunction with the glow plugs would work in helping the issue...  Possibly leave the intake air heater on as sort of an afterglow function to aid in warmup operation...

Speaking of Emiata, do a search on here for "prothe" to get a feel for the vendor...  On the other side of the coin Smokey Eddy on here has been using one of his AAZ heads with no problems...

Whew, it's way past my bed time, let me know if I wasn't making sense on something here..  ;)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 04:59:26 AM by maxfax »

nathan_b

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 05:13:50 AM »
I have a 1.6 with 1.9 head. 2 notch aaz head gasket. 1.6 injectors, ip. stock mk1 glow plugs. This past winter it started in -12F with no block heater and a stock mk1 size battery. Don't get me wrong, it belched white smoke for a min or two, but always started perfectly. I daily drove it all winter in ohio.

Hard starting 1.6/1.9 is a myth, or due to poor tuning. My timing is set to "1.05"
81 caddy frankentd 02a, 99.9 tdi jetta, 00 golf

theman53

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 05:33:01 AM »
if you put a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block it will lower the compression and make for harder starting in the cold. It is just a fact of numbers. We are not saying it won't start, run rough, etc, but it will start harder than it would with the proper cc head. That said usually people are putting the 1.9 head on a 1.6 that has 250,000 plus miles and compression #s that aren't real good. Smoking eddy had one on his 1.6 and had some starting trouble and he had re ringed his. Not horrible starting trouble IIRC but not good either. I think his timing was 1.15 or something like that to get it to start there. I could be off.
 
So it isn't a myth is what I am saying. Your experience is probably more uncommon than most and great for you. Good to see another ohio dub guy.

maxfax

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 05:35:40 AM »
Hard starting 1.6/1.9 is a myth, or due to poor tuning. My timing is set to "1.05"

I've often wondered how bad the starting would actually be.. Less compression load on the starter, it ought to spin pretty good.. I've had a 1.6 with a 1.5 head  (25:1 compression)  always cranked slow as heck but managed just to start..

« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 05:37:18 AM by maxfax »

Armyhelopilot

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2011, 06:14:31 AM »
All,

    Great information.  The engine will be totally gone through, so using old parts will not be a consideration.  So, with all new parts, total seal rings, it should start somewhat easily.  I was thinking of going to a junkyard and getting the grid heater off of a Dodge just as a precaution and plumb it in to help the GPs out in the winter.

    So, is the AAZ head Prothe has worth the swap?  I have read several swaps and builds including Smokey Eddie's and it seems well within my capability.  $450.00 isn't too bad, and I would have it ported, polished, and I/E runners ceramic coated to help keep head temps down and reduce cracking.  There is a site that is quoting $1,800.00 for a performance head rebuild which includes larger valves (37 Int, 33 Exh vs 34 Int, 31 Exh), dual valve springs, port / polish / radius work and 3 angle valve job.  Too pricey for me.  What are the valve sizes on the 1.9?  IIRC, only the Intake is 1mm larger?

    What are the precups made of?  Just thinking if it is possible to either coat them or weld and then grind them smoothe to increase the compression.

     Thanks guys.  You are making this sound easier to do when I get back from Afghanistan.

Bob
1993 Geo Tracker w/ 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel
1990 F-350 Crew Cab w/ Cummins 4BT

maxfax

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2011, 07:04:14 AM »
    Thanks guys.  You are making this sound easier to do when I get back from Afghanistan.
 

Have you ever played with Legos???   Vw's are basically the same thing..  


The precups are made of Iconel..  Hard, I mean REALLY friggen hard..  Not much touches it in the way of grinding and sanding...  Don't have a clue how it welds..  But I do like to weld things I shouldn't.. Maybe I'll have to try that...

I dunno how long those grid heaters can stay powered, from what I have heard, for quite a while and not burn up..  Use your GP's and the air heater for starting, and have the grid heater powered for a bit after starting and you just might be okay..  
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 07:10:33 AM by maxfax »

theman53

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2011, 07:53:09 AM »
For what it is worth *not to sound like a broken record* Air Cooled Engines Plus--Tiffin, Ohio did my cyl. head. I think I had around 600.00 in it shipped both ways and:
Port/polish
stainless undercut swirl polish valves
flow bench report before and after
All new guides, retainers, lifters, etc.
The only thing that was used basically was the casting and cam.
I picked up around 15% more exhaust flow and almost 50% more intake...my 1.6 head should outflow a 1.9 head in STOCK form.
Plus John is a good guy. Send him your 1.9L head and I would love to see the printout of the flowbench on that before and after. If nothing else to compare to what I have :D

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 07:57:12 AM »
ROR,

  You suggested putting an AAZ (1.9) head on my 1.6 and forgo all the valve work.  I would also need new pistons, cam and a few other parts (injectors, glow plugs...)

no dude, you take a 1.6D, un bolt the head thats on it, put a plug in the front oil drain of the AAZ head, and install it on the 1.6 bottom end.

why do you need new pistons, cam and other things?

you can use almost all of the left over 1.6 parts..

Volkswagens = Legos
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Armyhelopilot

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 08:18:57 AM »
All,

    Still great info.

ROR:  This is a used engine out of a junkyard.  It was the owner's engine and he said he rebuilt it less than 20k before he wrecked it so I have no idea what the condition of the internals are.  I do not want to end up like some others by reusing used parts.  Besides, I will need new pistons as mine are N/A with no squirter cutouts, and I am putting squirters in just to be on the safe side.  I was thinking the cam to help it breathe a little better and spool the turbo more.  Plus, if the cam will stay open a little longer and let a little more air in (along with a good port and polish), then when it compresses it will have a higher compression, helping the cold start and the inherent problem of a lower copmpression with an AAZ on a 1.6L.  Just thinking out loud, am I way off base here?

Man:  I keep hearing about Air Cooled Engines Plus.  I will have to give him a call when I get back.  Definitely cheaper than $1,800.00.  Plus, if the above works for more airflow and subsequently more compression at startup, messing with the cups is a non-issue.

    The Dodge grid heater would definitely help.  $115 new, cheaper at junkyard.  Plus, at a junkyard, I can get the relays also.

Bob
1993 Geo Tracker w/ 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel
1990 F-350 Crew Cab w/ Cummins 4BT

Armyhelopilot

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 08:23:49 PM »
All,

    Just trying to get ballpark numbers for HP / TQ.

Man:  You had Air Cooled Engines Port, polish your head among other things.  What do you think your HP / TQ numbers are right now?  Does he have a website or an email address?  Hard to call from over here.  I would like to ask him the cost of working on a 1.9 head.  Close to what you had done but just a bit more.

Anyone who has done the 1.9head on a 1.6 block, what did it improve your numbers to? 

Factory specs:
VW 1.6 Normally Aspirated diesel (CR, JK, ME): 52 HP and 71 ft lbs torque
VW 1.6 TurboDiesel (CY, MF): 68 HP and 98 ft lbs torque
Geo Tracker 1.6 Gas TBI: 80 HP and 94 ft lbs torque

As you can see, with the gasser in the Tracker right now I have 80HP, 94ft/lbs and I am putting in an ME block (52HP, 71ft/lbs) but I am installing a turbo and pump upgrades so at least I should get near 68HP, 98ft/lbs.  Will putting the 1.9 head on allow it to put out 100HP+ an 125ft/lbs?  That would be more than enough in my book.  Anything above that is icing on the cake.

Bob
1993 Geo Tracker w/ 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel
1990 F-350 Crew Cab w/ Cummins 4BT

theman53

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Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 08:32:24 PM »
I would like to think that I am making over 115hp. I would guess slightly over 130...but I have a Giles pump and 3" exhaust to help everything else I have done. I would think you could get your 100HP with a free flowing exhaust, gov mod, and a screwdriver...following the FAQ section for how to make your 1.6TD a faster car of course.

Why do I think 115+  It takes a bit to get rolling and I have an egt issue, but from 25-100mph it is faster than my mom's PD TDI jetta

 

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