Glow plug tips burnt off in the engine

[stubbornfarmer]

Hi all,

 New to the forum, but read extensivley! excellent info here, this is the first diesel Ive have encountered and the forum is like gold dust. I have searched hard but cant find the answer (typically) to my problem:

 Just bought a T3 (vanagon) with retro fitted 1.9 AAZ TD, it had new glow plugs (NGK's) and a new looking but burnt out set of NGK's floating around in the back. (thought nothing of it at the time)Started on the first turn but evidently the drive home of 60 miles was sufficient to see the new plugs off. The next day far from starting, it didnt even cough, despite fast spinning of starter. I took the easiest looking plug out and it is burnt off, all others remain cold when cycling, so pressumed dead. There is feed to the BUSS bar, fuse intact.

 I'm reading enough to suggest I should Re-fit nothing less than Motorcraft/ Beru plugs as they are the most hardy. The others have burned out within a matter of hours.  A guy on a different forum has tested various types here:

 http://www.members.shaw.ca/k2pilot/Glow%20plug%20removal%20article.html

 A good read if you are in a similar position. This guy confirms this and descibes destruction bench testing results.

 Not sure whether ive got a slow or fast heating circuit, but it has the tall black relay in a black box on the firewall, (new, also have new spare, so problem was approached by previous owner but not resolved)

 The relay appears to work okay and clicks off after about 30 seconds, it wont start at all, plenty of unburnt fuel issuing from the tail pipe, all plugs cold after two cycles.)

 So far, I can 'pimp' my glowplugs if circuit turns out to be faulty, but im distincly aware of the fact that in every cylinder I Have TWO plug tips floating about, What does this mean? The guy on the link above also describes the death of engines (albeit not VW ones) due to this and the clearence between the head and the piston being 3,000 of an inch.

 I can only assume I have a similar scenario and need to try and:

 rescue the tips by means of suction,
 take the head off to remove them,
 trust they will be spat out of the exhaust port or sit harmlessley inside
 
 To add further interest, The van was stranded at a friends house during this and in desperation to shift it I got it running with a tiny bit of the easy start (sorry, ran out of options) At the time i was ignorant of plug issues.
 
 Lumpy as hell, metallic sounding, plenty of white smoke. The effects of no glow plugs and the deathly easy start?

 Or the sound of my cylinders whacking away at lumps of glow plug? After a few minutes it settled down and the smoke stopped, drive home was normal and uneventful after that. But as I have only driven it once I dont have much to compare it to.

 Sorry about the essay, Just saying what I DO know, Any wisdom on this scenario is most welcome

 Temptation is to fit new quality plugs and hope for better, not keen on the idea off taking the head off! but if that is the case it'll just have to be done.

[burn_your_money]

Check your injectors. If the spray pattern is bad and hitting the glow plug it will burn the tip right off. If this is your problem you don't really need to worry about rescuing the tips, because they probably don't exist.

I would turn the motor over by hand and feel for anything unusual. If a tip actually is still in there you will feel it as the piston trys to compress it up against the head. If you had a direct injection engine it would be a different story because there would be somewhere for the tips to hide.

I personally use bosch duraterms. I've never had a problem with them and have no plans on changing from them. They have some sort of internal regulator to avoid overheating and melting their own tips off.

It wouldn't hurt to check your turbo on the exhaust side. If a piece of glowplug went through the engine there is a very good chance that it hit the turbine.

[Quantum TD]

With any luck, the tips were blown out the exhaust valves. As for the metallic noises when using starting fluid, that's normal. The diesel does not like starting fluid. If you MUST use anything, try WD40. But even that's not recommended. That the van smoothed out once it warmed up suggests it's probably fine.

I worked on a customers car once who had the broken GP tip issue. He had original Bosch glow plugs on a VW remanned motor. It was running fine, but had trouble starting. I simply replaced the plugs and all seemed fine. He's never been back since. I suspect the bits went out the exhaust valves, or are so imbedded in the head or pistons, that they're not an immediate threat.

As for solving your problem at its root cause, You should buy a complete matched set of glow plugs and relay.

When originally built, VW used a variety of different glow plug relays:

Slow: 20 second relay (usually in a silver metal case, or black plastic case with no part number)
Medium: 14 second relay (usually in a black plastic case with the # 60 stamped on the top)
Fast: 7-9 second relay (black plastic case with a #3 stamped on the top)

These relays had matched glow plugs to go with them. Unfortunately, suppliers only make the FAST glow plugs now. What does this mean? If you have a SLOW or MEDIUM relay in your vehicle, but fast plugs, you will burn out your glow plugs much faster than you would with the correct matching relay. They are only designed to run for 20 seconds tops, so if your relay is glowing them for 30 seconds, they'll burn out in a hurry. If your Vanagon is an original 1981-1984 diesel with an AAZ swapped into it, then it probably has the original SLOW glow relay.

According to Bosch and Bentley, broken off tips are indicative of bad injector spray patterns. So, you'll probably want to rebuild your injectors. This can be an issue for us in the States, as the AAZ injectors are dual stage (tow different pop pressures), and most shops are not familiar with how to calibrate them after the nozzles have been replaced.

Good luck.

[burn_your_money]

You can not buy new bosch nozzles for the AAZ injector. Bosch never made them available. What we do at the shop is clean the nozzle using an ultrasonic cleaner and some other methods. We get them working pretty close to new. For some reason the AAZ nozzles don't wear out like the 1.6 ones do.

[wolf_walker]

Little jack, but what are the dual-pop nozzles for?  Can one run a plain 1.6L NA nozzle in a NA 1.9?
Actually I know you can, we did it, is one supposed to?


And on topic, I maintain after maybe a million solid miles between Father and I in VW diesels over the years, glow plugs are
not supposed to break or melt, and head gaskets are not supposed to blow.  If they do, something is amiss.

[stubbornfarmer]

Hey thanks everyone for the fantastic input, you are all very generous!

 Its been an education in a week, working my way through this forum knowing a fair ammount about aircoolers, but never having touched a diesel, you guys know your stuff so well I'm humbled. cant wait to start trying some of the mods out, 'shim me govenor!' (one of the lesser known pirate's catch phrases)

 The update is this: got a set of bosch duroterms, look quality and reassuringly expensive. (best not melt these ones eh!) thanks 'libbybapa' and 'burn your money'

 Appreciate the spray pattern advice and feel more clued up now, rather suspect though that i have located the problem..... The BL/w wire from the relay (#T)to the temp sensor has been trimmed off in the engine bay. The sensor it should occupy is disconnected (needless to say) the other sensor on the coolant joint (which i had down as the temp sensor in the first place) go's to the temp gauge. The relays i have all look to be the same and most likely (from looking at photographs) the fast or medium speed (tall black plastic box) but no numberstamps, they look to be aftermarket. the one i have sat in front of me is an *electrix* 443 911 261 preheat time controller made in denmark (for what its worth) think they should work fine. thanks for the info Quantum, I'll try and establish the type for definite

Sounds like the duraterms will survive even if there is a desrepency.

So fingers crossed tomorrow I'll be getting somewhere with it. accounts for the 30 second cycles if the relay is getting no sensor signal.

also should mention that when it broke down and this whole shenanigan started its was the large positive on the starter solenoid that had more or less corroded/broken off. so no starter at all. being the dead of night we decided to settle for a push start. 20 mins later huffing and puffing and not a jot. next day i fixed the lead and motor was spinning for all it was worth still not firing.

So the fact I left the ignition on for periods of time while jumping in and out pushing, trying to keep the heat in the head.  no idea that i was merrily melting the plugs off it in 30 second intervals!

 If im lucky i'll just have to plug the sensor in and it should work, just hope it hasn't been bypassed for some other reason.

finally as BYM pointed out i'll have to check the turbine (more new territory to research on here!) its fair to say it had a little more whistle to it when i drove it home, but i havent known the engine long enough to be sure. Plus when you're sat upfront you can hardly hear it.

 Thanks again one and all!!

[Smokey Eddy]

I never realized that rounded glow plug tips are from injectors. Shoot mine have always been rounded off ..
I've "rebuilt" my injectors before but i've never been able to pop test them and get numbers. Just have a shop tell me they are "good"...
Can anyone in the lower mainland (BC) test my injectors if i stop by for a visit?

[commuter boy]

NW Fuel Injection in Port Kells or Jims Fuel Injection in Vancouver can pop test your injectors for you.