MK1 1.6 TDR taking on mk2 GTI 16V... help me get there!

[golfmk1tdr]

BIG TURBOS!!! (vtn? )
AERO MODS!
TRACKDAY VIDEOS!
All things yet to come (hopefully  )

But first:

Been in love with mk1's since I first drove one when I was about 12...
But somehow people around me never knew how much it meant to me until
I swapped my lovely peugeot 1.6 petrol 306 for rusty slow old brick.  (arrived on trailor naturally)

They told me I am insane to even think about making it road legal
and I didn't listen.
They told me it was too old and too slow
and I thought to myself, you wait and you will see.
They told me this things cost time an money
and...        they were right.

Took a lot of sacrifice to get here, but after a year long rebiuld
I can now enjoy my car daily.


(Photo taken on newyears eve, outside temp. -15  °C  )

I have to say I didn't expect so much positive attention on the road,
I had girls wawing at me on motorway,  (bit of ashock to see girls like my car (opposed to my gf-s that didn't handle it so well)
I had thumbs up from people I overtook... (really temping not to give them more smoke in return  )
But still feel I am not finished.

So when people ask me to do a biuld thread I allways hesitate...
This is no showcar as I did everything myself and I can get bit sloppy/lazy at times.
Also no expensive parts as I can't afford much.
So if I can't show bling wheels and superclean engine bay (though I had some luck parts hoarding )
how could I interest people to make this worthwhile?

So I set goals for my car in hope that you lot will appreciate my efforts 

205+ kph              top speed (to justify my speedo range  )
-8s      0-100kph    acceleration (to smoke gti's  )
+100000 km        engine life (hopefully  )

So yes, when finished I am expecting to be able to smoke 16v GTI on motorway and round racetrack,
trick will be not to blow engine trying...

Also if you like nice dyno graphs I am afraid I will have to disapoint you as I plan to do my
aero charts and power numbers using timer, dash, maths and cellphone app's (I believe in grassroots engineering  )

So-any takers for this thread?
Any support will be much aprecciated since this car is taking it's tool on me as far as familly and friends go...
Feel free to correct any spelling mistakes and the like, I like it when people show my mistakes. (not native speaker)

Ran out of time for explaining current status so I will finish this too-long first post with turbo question:

Is stock VTN 17 right direction to take for daily 150 crank horsepower on 1.6 TD?
Seen one today for sale and I thought-perfect!
Current T3 turbo is just too much lag. HELP! 

[RabbitJockey]

do you have a boost controller on it?  increasing fueling will help to spool the turbo faster, you should be able to beat a stock 16v with a lightly modded 1.6td pretty easily.  you could swap a volvo t3 50 trim compressor on to your current t3, im not sure how that effects spool up but it is a much more efficient compressor and flows a lot more air.  52 trim gt2052 is a good turbo, or he200wg

[RabbitJockey]

do you have a boost controller on it?  increasing fueling will help to spool the turbo faster, you should be able to beat a stock 16v with a lightly modded 1.6td pretty easily.  you could swap a volvo t3 50 trim compressor on to your current t3, im not sure how that effects spool up but it is a much more efficient compressor and flows a lot more air.  52 trim gt2052 is a good turbo, or he200wg

  also larger down pipe will help spool up

[golfmk1tdr]

CURRENT ENGINE BAY STATUS:
MK2 GTD ENGINE FULLY REBIULD,
METAL HEADGASKET,
NEW STOCK HEADBOLTS (should I worry?)
T3 trouble turbo,
FRONT MOUNTED IVECO TRUCK INTERCOOLER,
6cm NEW EXHAUST,
STOCK TOILET BOWL DOWNPIPE,
CTN GEARBOX ON SELFMADE MOUNTS (5th gear at 5000 rev should be around 230kph  )
STOCK CTN CLUTCH (holds  well enough for now)
EGT (AUBER, very cool stuff for the price), BOOST AND OIL TEMP. GAUGES
also my governor looks like this:



So turbos... When engine was rebiuld I had original T2 turbo rebiuld, I liked it because it spooled instantly.
Also boost-control lever on rear of turbo is very easy to control boost so once I set it to max (which was about 1.5 bar)
car became so fast that I got scared for the engine (I didn't have EGT at the time) so I turned turbo back down to about 1.1 bar.
This lasted about 2 months then turbo started smoking in the engine bay (someone told me heat shield is damaged).

Lucky me I had another turbo around from my friend, T3 turbo...
It has some shaft play (up-down about 0.5mm, no play in-out) but what I fear is this:

You can see it's cracked around wastegate valve.
Could this be the reason  why I can only have 0.9 bar with blocked wastegate?
How much boost should I get from this turbo on blocked wastegate?

This is also why I am considering VTN17 turbo, I don't want to go into cost of rebiulding this one
and then have this crack getting bigger.

So if anyone can please help me get this turbo right I will be happy, where should I look?
I will try to presurize intake system today to see if I have leak there.
Also, when we were instaling this turbo I turned wastegate around a bit I was thinking maybe
it can be set like T2 wastegate only from inside-I guess not?
What is the function of turning wastegate valve?
Is there any other way to check tor wastegate valve leak or stuck besides having it opened?

Also rabbitjockey, how much boost do you get with stock T3? Where does it spool ful boost, 4000?
I would like to run more boost than I can fuel for low EGT and I don't know if T3 can do that reliably.

Still would love someone to comment on VTN17, I only found info about VTN15 done on 1.6..

[theman53]

That crack is small in comparison to what I have had and seen. It is a 20+ year old turbo it is not a big deal and not the cause of your loss. You could have a much bigger crack and not effect it much.

[Mk1 Diesel]

Go for the Holset He200wg turbo it's A very good and fast spooling turbo I had  it on my old setup very driveable and good for 170-180 whp With modified IP.

[mark3kid]

I don't know to much about these engines but if it was me I'd be worried about going bigger turbo without head stud's. I made that mistake on my 1.9td aaz. I ran a k24 with about 30psi and actually lifted the head off the block due to no head stud's.

[Mk1 Diesel]

My old setup 173whp got standard Bolts and 35psi no problem (aaz head)

[golfmk1tdr]

My old setup 173whp got standard Bolts and 35psi no problem (aaz head)

Did alcaid put your dyno video on youtube? I think it was your car, very nice 
Can you tell what mods you did to the engine for 173whp?
Stock 1.9 head? (think not  )
Airflow work? Injection pump size?
I think 170whp mk1 would be my absolute dream car but right now
holset is too expensive for me, I can't put more than 200€ into turbo right now and
I could get vtn17 garret for that or fix my T3 garret with 360degree bearing hopefully.
But I dont think either of these turbos will give more than 120 whp for long...

I don't know to much about these engines but if it was me I'd be worried about going bigger turbo without head stud's. I made that mistake on my 1.9td aaz. I ran a k24 with about 30psi and actually lifted the head off the block due to no head stud's.

Did you rebiuld your engine and used old bolts?
I used new bolts as they supposed to be only used once...
Hope that was your mistake if not I feel bad for my engine already...

That crack is small in comparison to what I have had and seen. It is a 20+ year old turbo it is not a big deal and not the cause of your loss. You could have a much bigger crack and not effect it much.

What do you think is the cause?
You had some tiny boost leaks (if I remember coorectly u have mk2 jetta right?)
I might have tiny hole in my intercooler (less than 1mm square) do you think I would lose so much to that?


STILL HAVING TROUBLE BIULDING BOOST.
I tested if I have intake manifold leak but I couldn't get pressure to stay in manifold with blocked
tubing, is air leaking on valves normally or should it hold pressure?

What is most common reason for bad boost on IDI?
Intercooler/boost tube leak?
Could I have bent valves? (hoope not)
Or is turbo just too far gone? I believe it should still charge more than 1bar since it's not grinding vanes or anything...

I don't have much fun driving the car anymore since I get smoke instead of power making me rather depressed lately 
Sorry my nagging but I really could use some pointers as I feel I am looking at wrong stuff all the time
and staring at engine bay isn't fixing much but I can't disssasemble daily driver to diagnose.
Any tips on diagnosing my lack of boost would be much aprecciated... 
I was even considering to tell my grandma to blow cigarette smoke into boost tubing as I don't smoke...
But I don't think her lungs are up to that 

[jmaddocks]

Go for the Holset He200wg turbo it's A very good and fast spooling turbo I had  it on my old setup very driveable and good for 170-180 whp With modified IP.

The Holset is a fantastic turbo.  I helped my son put one on his mk2 jetta.  It spools quickly to 32-33 psi, even at our elevation (~6000 ft), with egt rarely exceeding 1100 deg F.  He consistently averages 42-44 mpg in city driving.  A friend of his has a 2010-ish WRX, and after a 2nd-3rd gear pull, the Jetta is within a car length (i.e. front bumper next to the WRX's rear wheel) at the top of third gear.  It's impressively fast, particularly with no passengers.  He's saving his money for an AAZ head.

Not to change the subject, but we just picked up a sweet '79 rabbit diesel that has a newer 1.6 na and 12mm head bolts.  This one will be a project with my 15-yr-old daughter, who gets her license this summer.  I told her, "Hey, I don't think we'll be able to get the euro bumpers for a while -- they're pretty expensive."  She replied, "That's okay -- I think I'd rather get a turbo first."     I'll probably end up getting another Holset, even though they're a little more expensive than the OEM options.

[mark3kid]

I did use new head bolts but they are stretch bolts and didn't agree with high boost for me. It was my own fault I should have ran head stud's. High egts may factor in to as I didn't have an egt gauge at the time

[Selle]

My old setup 173whp got standard Bolts and 35psi no problem (aaz head)

Did alcaid put your dyno video on youtube? I think it was your car, very nice 
Can you tell what mods you did to the engine for 173whp?
Stock 1.9 head? (think not  )
Airflow work? Injection pump size?
I think 170whp mk1 would be my absolute dream car but right now
holset is too expensive for me, I can't put more than 200€ into turbo right now and
I could get vtn17 garret for that or fix my T3 garret with 360degree bearing hopefully.
But I dont think either of these turbos will give more than 120 whp for long...

Same car yes. If my memory is correct, it was a completely stock 1.6 bottom with a stock AAZ head. 11mm pump by dieselmeken, and a older Holset HE211W. The newer HE200WG is capable for even more.

The HE200WG is worth every penny. I have one on my MK4. MK1 diesel did most of the custom work on my car

[RabbitJockey]

lifting heads is an issue with running too much boost with too small and inefficient of a turbo, like a k24

[rodpaslow]

If you're investigating a VNT 17, after I blew-up my 15, that's what I bought for my 96 1.6 td.  I had a bit of problem trying to reuse the oil pan fitting for the drain.  I didn't like it so I drilled the pan just under the block in center of pan and drain it there.  The other thing with any new vw turbo on older cars the engine mount on pass side has to be replaced, even if you're thinking of a 2052 or silmilar; that is in a MK2 or Mk3.  Not sure how it will fit in a MK1.  Might be fine??

As far as the turbo goes it's fantastic.  I don't drive it super hard, usually stay under 3500 rpm or so. I've got it set by about 1750 or so rpm I can be at full boost (I set mine to max out at about 18-20 psi).   I've had it for 3 year now -about 45000 km no issues.  Instant gratification because the 1.6 likes to rev so well.

I have a 99 tdi also in a golf, it doesn't pickup as fast in the lower revs as the 1.6td.  With a 2052 turbo once over about 2200 rpm the tdi is much, much quicker.  My .02$ the vnt on a 1.6 is better than the 2052.  It fits the 1.9 engine much better.

[golfmk1tdr]

If you're investigating a VNT 17, after I blew-up my 15, that's what I bought for my 96 1.6 td.  I had a bit of problem trying to reuse the oil pan fitting for the drain.  I didn't like it so I drilled the pan just under the block in center of pan and drain it there.  The other thing with any new vw turbo on older cars the engine mount on pass side has to be replaced, even if you're thinking of a 2052 or silmilar; that is in a MK2 or Mk3.  Not sure how it will fit in a MK1.  Might be fine??

As far as the turbo goes it's fantastic.  I don't drive it super hard, usually stay under 3500 rpm or so. I've got it set by about 1750 or so rpm I can be at full boost (I set mine to max out at about 18-20 psi).   I've had it for 3 year now -about 45000 km no issues.  Instant gratification because the 1.6 likes to rev so well.

I have a 99 tdi also in a golf, it doesn't pickup as fast in the lower revs as the 1.6td.  With a 2052 turbo once over about 2200 rpm the tdi is much, much quicker.  My .02$ the vnt on a 1.6 is better than the 2052.  It fits the 1.9 engine much better.

Wow finally someone with info on 17vtn 
20 psi under 2000rpm sounds too good to be true, you sure you aren't exagerating a bit?
How do you control vanes? Pedal connected? Electronics?
Did you use stock exaust manifold with adapter plate? VTN17 has 3 bolts for manifold right?
Can you share a photo maybe?
I did kind of decide to go with holset turbo but still very interested into VTN so please share, any info is great..
Also engine mount in mk1 is different so that should be no problem...

lifting heads is an issue with running too much boost with too small and inefficient of a turbo, like a k24

So to much backpressure is main concern? I am reconecting BOV A.S.A.P hearing you say that 

My old setup 173whp got standard Bolts and 35psi no problem (aaz head)

Did alcaid put your dyno video on youtube? I think it was your car, very nice 
Can you tell what mods you did to the engine for 173whp?
Stock 1.9 head? (think not  )
Airflow work? Injection pump size?
I think 170whp mk1 would be my absolute dream car but right now
holset is too expensive for me, I can't put more than 200€ into turbo right now and
I could get vtn17 garret for that or fix my T3 garret with 360degree bearing hopefully.
But I dont think either of these turbos will give more than 120 whp for long...

Same car yes. If my memory is correct, it was a completely stock 1.6 bottom with a stock AAZ head. 11mm pump by dieselmeken, and a older Holset HE211W. The newer HE200WG is capable for even more.

The HE200WG is worth every penny. I have one on my MK4. MK1 diesel did most of the custom work on my car

How much power is that on mk4, did you dyno?

I did use new head bolts but they are stretch bolts and didn't agree with high boost for me. It was my own fault I should have ran head stud's. High egts may factor in to as I didn't have an egt gauge at the time

What was the damage after that? Anything besides head gasket leak?

Thinking about 1.9 AAZ head
Read people saying that AAZ on 1.6 doesn't work, can anyone explain why some have issues?

Thank you all for contributing 
This forum has so many posts now it's time consuming to find info I want, this is much better